In this episode, Alay Yajnik and Jacqueline Newman, Managing Partner at Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein, discuss how she has grown her firm from 3 attorneys to 17, and growing!
- “For me, culture is really important.” – Jacqueline Newman
- “If you’re only doing two things at once, you’re wasting time.” – Jacqueline Newman
- “Most successful attorneys build their business upon the relationships they have built.” – Alay Yajnik
- “The best law firms grow through talent, not marketing.” – Alay Yajnik
Alay Yajnik: Welcome to Lawyer Business Advantage. This podcast is dedicated to helping attorneys earn more money, get better clients and spend more time with family. I’m your host, Alay Yajnik, founder of Law Firm Success Group. Smart Business Guidance for small law firms begins in 3…2…1….
Alay Yajnik: And it’s my pleasure to welcome to Lawyer Business Advantage Jacqueline Newman, who is the managing partner of Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein. Jacqueline, how are you doing this morning?
Jacqueline Newman: I’m well. Thanks so much for having me.
Alay Yajnik: Thank you so much for being on the show today. I’m very excited to chat with you. I think you have a lot of insights that our guests could really benefit from. Tell us about your role at Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein.
Jacqueline Newman: Sure. So I’m the managing partner. I have been with the firm for over 20 years, and it’s actually the only firm I’ve ever worked at. So I kind of moved my way up. But yeah, I manage. We have an office in Westchester which we manage. I have a Jersey Of Councilperson and then we’re talking about expanding what we’ll talk about that a little more later.
Alay Yajnik: I look forward to that. For people that aren’t familiar, what is your role as managing partner?
Jacqueline Newman: So, I mean, basically, I kind of manage everything CEO, CFO, rainmaker, billable workhorse, a little bit of everything. But really, basically, I mean, I’m the one who’s kind of actually handling all the finances. I’m also making all the managerial decisions and I do the hiring. Unfortunately, sometimes I do the firing and it’s really everything that goes to running a firm.
Alay Yajnik: So ultimately, it sounds like the buck stops with you. And there’s a lot of people that, you know, might not enjoy that responsibility. But based on our conversation earlier, you really thrive on this. So what do you really enjoy about wearing all of those hats as managing partner?
Jacqueline Newman: Yeah, I do, I absolutely love it, so our firm is a matrimonial law firm, so we do exclusively matrimonial law and I kind of joke often that I can only divorce so many people. So the idea that ultimately I’m in a situation now where I get to do business. I used to be a matrimonial law that dabbled in business. And now I actually think I’m much more so a business person that kind of dabbles in matrimonial law. I spend probably more than 50 percent of my time at this point running the firm, and I absolutely, absolutely love it. I think it’s fun and it’s interesting and there’s always a new challenge. And I love the idea of being creative in business, and this gives me that opportunity.
Alay Yajnik: What do you love about running your firm and focusing on the business aspects of running your firm versus practicing law?
Jacqueline Newman: So, you know, they’re very different, but on some level they’re the same, so we deal with the high net worth, so we do divorces. Most of my clients are business owners. I think the fact that I’m running my firm, I have such a better insight. I think it actually makes me a better lawyer to many of my clients that are business owners. And I think what I learned from my clients actually also helps me run my business. And I do a lot of managing partner meetings. So I meet people that are all over the place. I had one this morning and we were talking all about comp and succession planning and stuff. And I just love this stuff. I’m a big supporter of anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur. I can talk business all day long.
Alay Yajnik: I love to hear that. That’s great. And how did you get started in learning about the business of law?
Jacqueline Newman: Well, it really happened organically. So I had my partners actually one is now retired, but I had two older partners and one of them was my law school professor. And I went up to him at the end of class and asked if they were hiring and they were. And that’s how this all started. And so what ended up happening was that I started as an intern and then I was an associate. And as I became more engrossed in the business and became a partner, then became an equity partner then a named partner. And as I moved up, I was very interested in the business aspect of things. My partners were less interested in it. They were very much into the practice of law and they would pay the bills, but they just weren’t paying attention to the things. And I became very interested in it. And eventually the way I became managing partner was, I actually walked into their office one day and I said, “I think I should be managing partner.” And they said, “OK.” And that was that. And so, yeah, and since then and now I’ve taken that role. And in the time we started with just the three of us and now we are 17 attorneys. So we have been consistently growing. We are going to continue to grow. And I’ve really taken, from my opinion, the managing partner part to such a degree. You know, now this is a business now that before was really just lawyers that were kind of playing business. But I don’t know if you experienced that. Lawyers as a whole are generally pretty bad business people. And so when you find someone who enjoys it and really gets into it, I feel like people, they like that.
Alay Yajnik: Well, lawyers work really hard at practicing law, and that’s what they’re trained to do, is to practice law. And it’s a full time job, more than a full time job to become a better attorney as well as take your clients. And there isn’t always the time to learn about business. And so you’ve done that. And I’d love to get your take on this because they asked us to clients and and other folks all the time. Which do you think is more challenging? Is it learning to become a really good matrimonial attorney or wanting to become a really good business owner?
Jacqueline Newman: Really depends on the day. I think that there are challenges to both being a matrimonial attorney and you adapt your client situations. And so it’s very hard, I think, of each of my cases is almost like a TV show. There’s a whole cast of characters and everyone has their own story. And so you’re balancing a lot of different things. And I and I do enjoy that and I enjoy helping people. And that feels really good to me. And I find a lot of the issues that come up with my clients, whether it be their businesses, their families or just interesting people issues. So I enjoy that. And then when you’re looking at being a managing partner of a business, you have all of your client, I mean all of your staff who I can kind of consider like my family. And so you have all the issues that go on there and a lot of dynamics. And, you know, for me, culture is incredibly important. I mean, I pour so much time into the culture at my firm, which is obviously being a little challenge in the club at times. But we’re doing pretty well. And so, you know, when you ask about challenges, I mean, when things are not going well in any way, I probably take it a little harder for my business perspective, because these are my people and this is my family. And I want to make sure everything’s going well as opposed to the clients that their family. And I’m trying to help them. But I didn’t help create that environment. So I probably I think it’s harder on some level running the firm from that perspective. I probably take a little more personally.
Alay Yajnik: That’s a really interesting insight. I tend to look at things in terms of the the educational components necessary. And for me, being someone who’s a business person, looking at the practice of law, I am just mystified and in total admiration of everything you all do. And the law firm from the firm, like a business model perspective, is super simple. So I love bringing all the aspects of culture that you’re bringing into this, managing your team and taking care of your work family, because they’re the people at the end of the day are the firm. The firm does not exist without them. And so you’re balancing a lot of hats. You’ve got business development running the firm and you’re taking care of clients. You mentioned you’re preparing for trial. How and you have a family. So how do you balance all of these things together?
Jacqueline Newman: So I don’t sleep a lot and I’m a big multitasker. I always joke that if you’re only doing two things at once, you’re wasting time. So I think it’s just a lot about time management. I also happen to be really good at working late at night. Like my associates, they know they’re going to get work from me up to one o’clock in the morning. Those are usually I take the hours from pretty much like I would say, like nine o’clock to one is the time that I focus really on so much of a lot during the day. I would say it’s a lot more of the networking. It’s a lot more of dealing with client calls. But I do most of, as I said, the business stuff and the real like editing agreements and researching and all that sort of stuff. I do that really late at night, so I definitely get the most out of all my hours. And I think that helps.
Alay Yajnik: And you clearly enjoy it. There’s people that would be just that don’t want to have that lifestyle. But I can tell you light up when you talk about it so you have a real passion for what you do. Do you ever see yourself shedding some of those responsibilities over time?
Jacqueline Newman: So, you know, it’s interesting. I said I had a managing partner meeting this morning, a woman’s managing partner meeting and they were talking to me a lot about that this morning and saying that they think it’s an important thing and I am making efforts with it. We have established in my office what I consider an executive committee of a few of my partners. And we have executive committee meetings and I’m really making a point of trying to engross everyone into that to help with the decisions. We also formed a ton of committees. Every time someone mentioned something, I said that sounds like a committee. And so we have like probably like twelve or thirteen committees in the office right now. And I’m really trying to kind of push a lot of the response that I’m a little controlling. So it’s kind of challenging. And then I do see this. I have two children, but I see this firm as my third baby. So it’s a little hard, but I’m making big efforts because I do think you get to a certain point where it’s important for them to grow. But it’s also, I think, important for me to kind of step back on something.
Alay Yajnik: And what are some of the differences you’ve seen in the culture of the firm and among your team now that you’re forming these committees and people are getting more engaged in the decision making?
Jacqueline Newman: I actually think it’s helping a lot. Originally, it really was kind of I was making a lot of these decisions. I also have a partner is a little younger than my another equity partner who has been like my sidekick. I mean, he’s amazing. And so I talked to him a lot about a lot of these things and he’s learning the business more. So, I mean, he sits in a lot of my calls and he’s definitely interested. And I love that because when you feel like someone’s interested, it makes you excited. So he’s been really helpful with me on that and taking some of the burden. And I feel like I can complain to him because he gets it. He sees it on all levels. So it’s not it’s not falling on deaf ears whether he can help or not. And sometimes he’s like, look, it is what it is. And he’s right. It is what it is. You just have to deal with it. But I do feel like it, especially in the corporate world. And what we’ve been doing a lot with the culture and these committees and things, I do think it’s helping. I think that it’s keeping people engaged. I think that they’ve got more skin in the game when they say their voices are heard. I mean, I’m very into the idea that we all make decisions together as a firm. I mean, I think we have a very rare culture in that in that sense. I mean, only recently in March was the first time I ever lost an associate to another matrimonial law firm. Before that I’ve never lost anyone to a matrimonial law firm. More than 20 years I have people that have started with me and that have been with me for 10 years plus. It’s really a very, very special group of people that I work with and I feel so fortunate.
Alay Yajnik: So I have to ask, since you opened the door, how would you describe the special culture that you built?
Jacqueline Newman: I mean, I use the word special. I mean, they are my family. I mean, one of the things about this covid situation, we haven’t been in the office since March. We’re in the middle of midtown Manhattan. So my office emptied in March and we haven’t been back since. And I miss everyone so much. I mean, we do we do a lot of meetings. We do at least once a week. We do these new meetings. We actually have a full firm happy hour this afternoon. Yeah, we do a lot of that to try to keep everybody as connected as possible and just physically seeing each other. But it’s hard. I mean, it’s it’s a very hard thing to kind of keep the culture alive, but I think we’re doing as best as we can. And people seem happy and and we talk a lot. There’s a lot of communication in my office and everybody knows my door’s open and they know they can reach me up to at least one in the morning. So that helps, too.
Alay Yajnik: Well, thank you for sharing that. For me what really comes out there (you mentioned this now a couple of times) is you really think of the people in your firm as your family. I don’t hear that a lot. And so I’m not surprised that if you really take that perspective in your firm, which you clearly have, that that drives a lot of loyalty and a lot of engagement. It’s not something I hear very often. Shifting gears and moving to the business development side of things. You have done so many things with regards to business development. I’m really excited to chat for a few minutes with you about that. You’ve just written a book, The New Rules of Divorce Twelve Secrets to Protecting Your Wealth, Health and Happiness. Tell us about that.
Jacqueline Newman: So that was a passion project, to say the least, that got published by Simon and Schuster. Came out not this past January, the January before almost a year ago, right before covid, no less. I was very excited about the project. It was a really interesting experience to write a book and to go through the publishing process. But it’s helped a lot. I think it’s helped in business development, but more so even to the point that I say this. Now people come to me all the time and think that, “How do I write a book?” As if I’ve become this expert, which I’m obviously not. But I did go through the process and I say the funny thing about writing a book is that people assume that if you write a book, you’re smart. I always joke about the fact that I could have written “Mickey divorces Minnie” 8 million times in the same book and people would still think you’re smart. And that was an interesting aspect of it. I mean, I obviously think the book is really good and I think it’s really helpful to people, but it has helped with business development to that point that people will say, “Oh, you’re an author.”
Jacqueline Newman: And obviously it’s a book that a lot of people I’ve had clients that have absolutely bought it and come in to me and say, you know, I bought it because I read your book and I’ve come to see you because of that. And quote me back my book, which is always kind of funny
Alay Yajnik: You’re thinking, “Wow, that’s brilliant! Who wrote that?”
Jacqueline Newman: Yeah, that’s right. But one of the things one of the reasons that people talked about it from a business development perspective of writing a book is that people don’t like to throw away books. And so you’ll get a book and you feel bad throwing it away so people will just throw it on a shelf. And then one day, you know, the theory is that like someone’s like, you know, they need a divorce attorney, whether for themselves or a friend. And they’re like, wait, I know there’s something around here as opposed to a business card, but someone’s going to toss out so and then they’ll find a book and then hopefully they’ll love it.
Alay Yajnik: Love it. Well, I’m glad to hear it’s working for you and getting published by Simon and Schuster. That is a big differentiator versus self publishing a book too. There’s a whole other podcast we can do on how you got that book deal and and made it happen. But you’ve also done YouTube, podcasts, TV, you’ve been quoted in articles and you’ve taught at law school. All of those things have business development implications. And so over the course of your career, what have you found to be the most effective business development tactics for you?
Jacqueline Newman: So I think that really what it comes down to is much more just plain old fashioned networking, I think, which doesn’t show up on a website, but I do a lot of networking. I do a lot of meetings. I’m very into putting the right people connecting. And I say when I first started, when I started networking, when I first started taking it very seriously, it was probably about 10 years ago. And I used to call it work dating or basically you would basically go on a date. You’d meet people and you decide, you know, if you thought it was someone you were going to work with. But I dated a lot of people in the beginning. I pretty much said no to no one. Anyone that wanted to go and meet, I would meet. As I’ve gotten further in my career. I probably don’t do that all the time now. But I think that just one on one meetings, which is a little challenging the closed environment. But I do think that those are really the best way to get yourself out there.
Jacqueline Newman: And matrimonial is an interesting thing to network, because first of all, everyone finds their stories interesting and for many people where people want to network with us because they see as a liquidity event.So you have accountants. We have so many different areas. We have accountants. We have trust and estate attorneys because everyone’s going to need a will. Financial advisors love to come talk to us because, again, liquidity event and we’re a trusted advisor. So you get a lot of people that come to us and say, “I want to talk to you.” And that obviously helps in my networking as well, because not everybody knows a matrimonial attorney. And so especially as we do prenups, too. So prenuptial agreements are a big thing that you get trust and estate attorneys that will refer to you and financial advisors. So when you talk about what works, I think that works. The other thing that I think is really helpful is I do think doing any kind of media, television, any kind of writing, I think that helps, too, because the TV, especially because any time you have videos of any type, people will watch them. And if they’re on your website, they just get a sense of you. And I think that’s an important thing when people are making decisions, if they want to work with you.
Alay Yajnik: I am so happy that you threw out networking and relationship building as your number one, because all these things are terrific and it’s wonderful to have them available out there on the Internet and in other forms of media. But at the end of the day, for most successful attorneys, their business is built on the relationships that they’ve built. And so I’m really happy to hear about that. Are there organizations that you’ve done that have really boosted your networking efforts or is it been more just finding individual people?
Jacqueline Newman: So I’ve never done the full structured structured like I’ve never done the BNI or any of those type of things. I mean, I went to one meeting and while I think it was great and I actually give people a lot of credit for doing it, it wasn’t necessarily a great fit for me. And that’s really one of the only ones I did that was probably more in the structured environment. I have had a lot of groups like, for example, I’m part of a lot of managing partner groups. I said I’m part of certain women’s groups. I’m a part of business owners groups. Like I basically kind of find the things that are interesting to me and form groups around them. And I find that that helps because when people enjoy being where they are, that it creates a good environment. And I do. I have a I do do a lot of women networking, a lot of female networking and not all. At one point I was part of a high net worth group. It’s like you just find a commonality and that usually will breed networking.
Alay Yajnik: So find groups that you’re interested in, find groups that you enjoy and do those things.
Jacqueline Newman: Yes, that would be my advice.
Alay Yajnik: Great. What is your perspective on the Bar Association?
Jacqueline Newman: So I am part of certain associates, I think it’s important to be involved to some degree. I mean, you can make impact and obviously you’re dealing with people, you know, I don’t network as much in the structured environment outside, I guess some of the bar associations, if you consider that networking. But I usually network with people who are referral sources, such as people outside of my industry. That said I enjoy the bar. I’m on a matrimonial committee and I like that because it’s also nice to bounce things around with people that speak the same language as you do. So they’re less interested in the stories because they all have their own. But as a whole, it’s nice to be able to kind of blend and talk about things that we all understand or even to talk about war stories of like I can’t believe this happened, that happened to me with this judge or whatever it is. So that’s nice, too.
Alay Yajnik: So at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that we were going to talk about law firm growth later on, and that’s where we’re getting to right now. So I know you have really grown your firm in your tenure as managing partner, and I expect you might have more growth plans ahead. So tell me a little bit about how you’ve managed to grow your firm and what are your aspirations for the future.
Jacqueline Newman: So we’ve been really fortunate, I mean, again, when I interview people, one of the first things I look at, I mean, obviously I want to make sure you know what you’re doing and you’re a good person. But I think what I want to go to lunch with you. To me, that’s one of the biggest criteria, because I want to be able to create again, it all feeds into the culture. You could have the greatest book in the world if you’re not going to fit into my culture. Like, that’s not going to work. And I always say, like, no one yells at my associate ever for any of my staff, like no one gets no yelling. There’s no yelling in my office. Happy place, no yelling. I’m a big no yelling policy. And I can say, like in 20 years, I’ve never been yelled at. And I can honestly say that I don’t think anyone in my office has ever been yelled at. So when I think about so when you talk about growth, I really think for me it’s about finding the right people. I’ve been really fortunate in finding the right people. What happens? A lot, you know, matrimonial is a little bit of a hard field to break into because it’s small by nature.
Jacqueline Newman: We’re actually one of the larger matrimonial firms in in New York City. And considering we’re only 17 attorneys, it seems kind of crazy to say we’re a large firm, but we are. And so basically, it’s a hard field to break into because it’s a lot of those, as I said. So what happens is you get a lot of people that have are maybe a different practice areas and say, I really just want to have the experience. So I’ve gotten a lot of people that have come in as interns. Even if they’re right now, we’re actually we’d have hired somebody who was five years out. He was doing real estate, but he really wanted to do matrimonial came in as is practically a first year, because we have to teach him everything. And so sometimes I’ve had people come in and they’ve wanted to enter and I say great. And I say, listen, I’m not looking to hire. Well, you can be an intern, but I’m not looking to hire. And then they become invaluable and then I hire them. And that’s kind of what’s happened a bunch of times. And I have to create creating offices and things like that.
Jacqueline Newman: So we’ve been fortunate. And what’s happening also with associates is that I say a lot. I get a lot of people that call me from a different law firms and I mean that often, plus schools. And they’ll say, can I just can we just meet? I want to hear about how you build your practice or whatever those kind of I have these meet and greets and one of the pieces of advice I give to these people often is you should not call necessarily managing partner. You should be calling the senior associate because they’re the ones who know if we have to grow. And I say all the time with my senior associates, I say, you tell me if we have to hire like we just hired actually we hired three people. But it’s all because my associates said we need help and we do. And so I say, OK, well, they’re the ones who know because there is elements of some sort of hierarchy where I work with certain people and they train and so everybody trains each other. And so that’s really worked for us as a growth. And I’m really pleased with the way our firm is working.
Alay Yajnik: What I really took away from that, Jacqueline, is law firm growth for you has been much less about marketing and business development and much more about hiring the right people and building that amazing team. And that’s how the best law firms grow: it’s through talent, not through marketing.
Jacqueline Newman: Oh, I absolutely think that’s true. And as you grow a good team, then you’re going to get more clients and then when you get more clients, you need to hire more people so that all kind of feeds on each other. And one of the things we talking about with growth is that we are looking to open another office. We’re talking about open one in Long Island. And what ends up happening like this is what we did in Westchester is that, you know, at least what I’m finding is that you have to hire insiders when you’re basically in a situation that I say I’m not cocky enough to think I can go into a court where I’ve never seen a judge before and just be like, “I’m here.” And they’re going to say, “Who are you? I haven’t known you since sixth grade, so I don’t know anything about you.” And sometimes in these outer suburbs, people have known each other for a long time. And in the New York City Bar, we all sort of know each other. I think that that happens in whatever bar you’re in.
Jacqueline Newman: People develop communities. And so one of the things I love to do is to find the right community and to basically hire people and bring people into my firm, like we have a very good infrastructure. And so sometimes smaller firms might want to be part of a bigger matrimonial firm, but they don’t want to run their office anymore. And so I say, listen, we’re a plug and play like, I’m going to run your life for you. You’re going to practice law and we’re going to figure it out and you’re going to be part of our culture and have access to my associates. We’ll run everything for you. And a lot of people are interested in that, because going back to what we were saying originally, a lot of lawyers are not great business people and they don’t want to run a business. They just want to practice law. And so for people like that, we’re perfect because I do want to run a business. So I will run your business and you can practice law.
Alay Yajnik: That’s a great fit, right? Let people do what it is that they want to do. And that’s why I wrote my book on hiring, Staffing Up, because I very quickly realized is in helping law firms grow, the easy part is the marketing and the business development. The hard part is finding the right attorneys and building up that team over time. And if you don’t have those people in place, you could be doing the best marketing and business development in the world. It’s not going to get you any farther because you’ll max out. So you have to always be increasing capacity by adding quality people.
Alay Yajnik: What advice would you give to other partners, managing partners who are interested in growing their firms?
Jacqueline Newman: So I think kind of what you would just said, actually, I really do think it’s all about the team. I think that when you want to grow, you need to because, again, to totally echo exactly what you just said is that you could market people. But if you market and you bring people in, but you can’t fulfill it because you don’t have the right team in place and that’s really doesn’t do anything and it can destroy your reputation. So I think that’s a really important thing. So when you talk about growth, I think it’s all about, again, finding the right people. I’m a big believer in if you build it, it will come. And so and I find that a lot. Every time that I think that we hire someone, I’m like, oh, they’re not going to be busy. They’re going to be they always end up busy. Like right now we’re probably busier than we’ve been. And I was a little panicked at the fact that we just hired three new people. So I think, again, I think it’s building it. I think when you’re looking to bring in laterals, are looking to build like we I joke about being like someone who goes in each other.
Jacqueline Newman: Firms like I want to bring in other firms or other smaller firms that want us to do something. So you have to find the right puzzle piece that fits. But if you are looking to grow and you’re looking to bring people in that are that are rainmakers, for an example, there’s all sorts of I mean, we have a million different creative formulas on how you can financially make it work. But I think it’s very important, again, finding the right people, finding people that are going to fit your niche. If you need a rainmaker, then find someone who’s a rainmaker. If you need somebody who’s going to be a worker bee, find someone who is a worker bee. Don’t think that you’re necessarily going to change. It’s almost like marriage. Don’t think you’re going to change someone. Mind where their strengths are and make sure it’s a right match. And I think that’s really the important part. So growing your business is being smart about the people you find.
Alay Yajnik: I love that, love that, thank you, Jacqueline. So as you look ahead, what excites you about Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein and the future?
Jacqueline Newman: So I think the idea of growing is exciting to me, someone asked me the other day like, how big do you want to get? And I said, you know, again, it’s so much about the right people. But if I find the right people, there’s no stopping. You know, it’s all about if I can find the right people and sit and say I could have lunch with every little box on the screen, which is how I feel right now in the real world, then I think that’s great. So I think the things that excite me is, again, just to see, like what’s going to happen. I mean, I’m all about creativity. I’m all about business creativity. And to think what the next great idea is going to be, that’s exciting. So we’ll see.
Alay Yajnik: Well, Jacqueline, thank you so much for being on the show, for sharing all this terrific insight and advice and wisdom. If people want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to reach you?
Jacqueline Newman: I would say probably the website, which is www.berkbot.com.
Alay Yajnik: Thank you very much! And everyone, that is Jacqueline Newman, managing partner of Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein, outstanding matrimonial lawyers in Manhattan. Jacqueline, thank you so much for joining us today.
Jacqueline Newman: Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Alay Yajnik: And that’s a wrap for this episode of the Lawyer Business Advantage podcast. One thing that would really help both us and other new potential listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a comment in iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you tune in to listen. And I want to hear from you. So connect with me on LinkedIn and let me know what you think of this episode. And if you are a solo or an owner of a small law firm and you’re looking to earn more money, attract better clients or reduce your stress, we would love to talk with you to see how we can help request your free law firm assessment by visiting lawfirmsuccessgroup.com. Again, that URL is lawfirmsuccessgroup.com. We look forward to talking with you soon. Thank you for listening. My name is Alay Yajnik. Until next time, remember, you can see freedom. You can embrace happiness. You CAN build your perfect practice.